A Predictor of Failed Relationships & Solutions

A Predictor of Failed Relationships & Solutions

About this Podcast:

A description of, including modeling of behavior, of the strongest predictor of a relationship that may be doomed to failure, including a discussion of trauma bonding and codependency. Most importantly, we talk about concrete practical solutions if you intend for your relationship to succeed.

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:15.810] Good morning, everybody. I'd started this podcast two or three days ago and realized that it's pretty complex. There's a lot of information in it. It is concerning something that I see with couples that almost always foretells a relationship, that if you can't sort this particular problem out, the relationship is not going to last. There is a guy named John Gottman who has, I think, the four horsemen of the apocalypse that he says that are these signs that he sees that give them over 90% predictability, that the relationship will not last. [00:00:56.370] But this is separate from that. But the reason it got complicated is because it involved the conversation of codependency, and that itself has its own definitions. And so at some point, I found myself stopping and going, blah, blah, blah. I don't know what I'm saying. So I stopped and threw it out. [00:01:17.600] And so now I'm starting again. And maybe I'll make it through and maybe I won't, but we'll see. So, in my couple's work, I see lots of trends. The thing about therapists is you just sit with people as they struggle with things for year after year after year for thousands and thousands of hours. And it seems like you have some amazing insight. [00:01:41.320] But the truth is, if you do that, you start seeing patterns that just show up over and over that are super obvious to you, that are maybe not obvious to the people struggling in the situation. So this is one of those patterns. So I'll describe the pattern first, and then maybe talk about a little bit about how it is a kind of codependency. Give you an example of hardcore codependency with alcoholism or addiction, and then talk a little bit more about, if you see this in your own relationship, how you can back out of it and how you can understand how toxic it is and that it really needs to be addressed. So the behavior is when couples fight, and all couples fight. [00:02:31.710] If you're in a long-term relationship, you better be having fights. If you're not having fights, you were either both reached a Buddha level of consciousness, or you're not addressing anything and somebody's suffering terribly and just putting up with it, or you're ready to have an explosion, or you're the sort of people that once the kids leave and go to college, suddenly get divorced, and everyone's like, what happened? Why did that happen? So when couples fight, there is a tendency, because you've known one another for so long, and there's so much friction, and there are resentments and things that have never been resolved, especially if you have kids, because you never got a chance to resolve it. You're too busy. [00:03:13.470] There's a tendency for whatever the conflict is at the moment for this resentment to actually be sort of adjacent to that resentment, and then it turns into, like, well, blah, blah. I know I might be kind of wrong here, but you did this and you always do this, and that's why I do this. And so I might be wrong about doing this. And so then things just go back and spread out into a history of things that might be unresolved. Okay. [00:03:46.070] That's normal if you have a long, long relationship with someone. And people who learn assertive behaviors or learn healthy behaviors learn not to do that. If you're upset with your partner because they tend to leave their laundry on the floor, you learn to be really respectful and just say, hey, I might have some things that I do, and please address it and maybe we can trade off. But it does really bother me how often you leave your laundry on the floor and I end up picking it up and it feels unfair. Can we negotiate this? [00:04:23.510] And again, I'm willing to trade if I'm out of my lane in some area and stick with that. Don't get into. Yeah, look, it might be like I might be leaving my laundry on the floor, but blah, blah, blah. Because you might be right. There might be a bigger context. [00:04:43.370] But when people fight that way, there's rarely any resolution. Because if you start going down adjacent pathways, your partner is going to go down adjacent pathways and it's never going to end. Because we're all human and we're all a mess. Okay? That's not exactly the behavior, that's something we all navigate, but the behavior that I see fairly regularly, that if it's really stubborn or deep, that I know a couple will not survive that behavior if they don't become conscious of it, is a codependent behavior in which as soon as there's a disagreement, rather than accepting that my partner feels differently, has a different response and different reasoning, and rather than acknowledging their reasoning and going, well, I do disagree with it and this is what I want, and then realizing, well, there's just a conflict, we don't agree on this, and we may not be able to agree on this, people will begin making subtle or maybe not so subtle ad hominem attacks. [00:05:54.120] They will start discussing your character, your psychology, your family of origin, to imply that the reason you think what you think is because you have issues. And if you listen to me and let me help you work through your issues and see your issues, you would actually agree with me. Now, from the outside when I say this, you can hear that this is very, very manipulative. It's disrespectful of your partner's basic humanity. There's also a little bit of narcissism in it. [00:06:28.420] Right? Because essentially I'm saying, if you don't think what I think, then there's some mild level of mental illness or existential confusion or you haven't done some evolving as a human being. And I'm pointing out where this isn't just a matter of you being wrong about the circumstances. This is about a matter of you have not evolved as far as I have, and you haven't seen what I've seen about you, and I'm fixing it for you so that you can agree with me again when I say it that way, that sounds incredibly manipulative, and it is. But when people are doing it, they're not doing it mean spiritedly. [00:07:07.770] It's codependency. That's codependency. Let me make it a little bit more concrete. Let's go back to the example of you have a partner who leaves our laundry on the floor. They get undressed at night. [00:07:23.630] They sort of, like, throw stuff on the floor. They're like, yeah, I'll pick it up in the morning. But they don't. They get busy. And then you sort of remind them. [00:07:31.550] And then three days later, they're still busy and they're like, yeah, no, I'm going to get on it. But they don't. [00:07:38.930] This is what this behavior looks like, right? Modeling it. So now I'm irritated and I'm pissed off. And you have a right. You have a right to your boundaries. [00:07:49.580] You have a right to have a strong say in your environment and how things go. If your partner behaves in ways that impacts you. And let's say it makes you kind of depressed and feel kind of messy. Let's say you have some mild sort of ADHD, and having a messy environment really impacts you, and it's really difficult. And so you need this problem to be solved. [00:08:10.740] You really need to negotiate it. But instead of owning your side of it, you go to your partner and go, look, your parents, I know your parents. I've seen them. They're a mess. Like, you've even talked about what a mess they were, and you were always late to school because they couldn't figure things out and blah, blah. [00:08:32.520] How do you not see that you're doing the same thing? And I've told you you need to go to therapy. And it's like you sit here and you leave this and I remind you and you leave this stuff on the floor and why aren't you listening to me? This would be so much better for you if you would listen to me and learn this habit. You're literally just recapitulating your childhood and probably bringing up childhood trauma, right? [00:09:01.710] It can get really deep, especially for people who have been in therapy themselves and have learned the psychological language. We begin gaslighting the other person and essentially saying, if you don't agree with me, you're crazy. There's something wrong with you. When that person feels personally attacked, when their psychological and emotional boundaries have been crossed, nine times out of ten, what do they do? Oh, my God, I can't believe you said that. [00:09:35.430] You're making this about my family and blah, blah. So on one hand, we might feel victimized and we might be like, I can't believe you're doing that. I shared with you what my family was like and my childhood was difficult and you're using this as ammunition and I can't believe that you would do that, blah, blah, blah. Which might be a fair point, but it still doesn't solve any problem that there's a serious disagreement here that really bothers both people. But we're sitting here arguing each other's childhood trauma and each other's character. [00:10:08.450] This is going nowhere fast. And there's going to be lots of resentment and lots of feelings of violation on both parts. Both members are going to feel totally not heard. You're not listening to me. And there's a real issue. [00:10:23.860] One partner is really bothered, really struggles with this happening. This needs to be negotiated, maybe even thought about or debated intensely, whatever. But all we're doing is sort of insulting each other and sending the message that you're a mess. And if you weren't a mess, you would agree with me. Another message that the attacked partner might send is very common, is they will retaliate by crossing the original person's boundaries and be like, oh, my God, can you hear what you're saying? [00:11:00.050] You are so ADHD. Seriously, that's what your life is about? Seriously. Like, you need to bring up my childhood and you need to bring up all this stuff and try to convince me that I'm a mess. We both know how distracted you are and how ADHD you are and you've even admitted it, and blah, blah. [00:11:19.380] And now there's just things like, oh, I left my socks on the floor. I'm such a bad person. [00:11:28.750] Have you taken your ADHD medication? If you're making this, this big of a deal, like, you're willing to have this huge fight, okay, that argument is coming from a reasonable place, even an honest place of, like, you have violated my boundaries. I'm super offended. You've done something that's unfair. But now all I'm doing is lobbying nukes the same way you are. [00:11:54.230] And I'm crossing your boundary, and all I'm doing is going, well, you wouldn't care about me leaving my laundry on the floor if there wasn't something wrong with you. So now you're having this fight that is never going to end. Never. Because no one can really navigate a conflict in a healthy way when someone is giving them something they can't solve. When you approach someone and say, either you agree with me, or there's something fundamentally character logically wrong with your personality and your coping skills and who you are, and it starts with you being blind and being wrong to who you are and how you are. [00:12:45.750] And in order to fix you, you have to agree with me. I mean, there is no human being on the face of the planet who doesn't have serious, serious issues, who isn't going to set their feet and lock up, and you should, because if you're the person who capitulates to those things, that is its own kind of really serious codependency. And you get those relationships where you have one person who's constantly manipulating and constantly accusing and saying, agree with me, or there's something wrong with you, agree with me, or there's something wrong with you. And then there's the codependent person who enables and does it and gives in and gives in and gives in, and that's really toxic and that won't last forever. [00:13:27.730] So I've described the more egregious level of this behavior. When someone's been doing that for a long time, maybe years, and there's lots of anger and frustration, and both people feel unheard. It's not just that you feel unheard, you're unseen. Like in those moments, in those fights, the person has literally set up a straw man. They've literally set up a childhood boogeyman, and they're bringing their family of origin trauma in, and they're setting you up as nine times out of ten, they're setting you up as a narcissistic parent who manipulated them and crossed their boundaries. [00:14:10.660] And they had to develop this extremely compulsive, relentless defense against that behavior. And so at an unconscious level, they are going to set their feet. They are never going to relent. They might love you. They might try to soften here and there. [00:14:27.580] They might try to negotiate, but they can never let go of that gross, violated feeling that someone more powerful than me is trying to manipulate me by telling me that I'm characterologically weak and blind and both partners are doing it. You can talk about this psychologically in many ways. You can say, well, that's a trauma bond. That is a trauma bond, 100%. That's a trauma bond. [00:14:57.070] That's codependency. So I'll take a mild left turn, I'll take a side loop and come back to the solutions and talk about codependency at its base. Maybe a definition I'm just making up right now. But at the base of codependency is a situation where two people have emotional issues, psychological issues, whatever issues they depend on. And those could be complex. [00:15:26.930] It could be just that I've positioned you as the bad person, and I need a bad person so that I can feel like a victim. But I have a need. We've positioned the other person because we need something from them unconsciously. We need, we're siphoning off something that we need. We need them to be someone or somehow to feed our own emotional issues. [00:15:51.270] But because we haven't dealt with our own emotional issues and we're not conscious of it, we will try to convince that person that this positioning is actually for them. I'm doing it for you now. I'm going to give you a super. And then that works both ways. Both people do that. [00:16:12.390] Again, you can call it codependent, you can call that a trauma bond. But this is something that couples do a lot. I'll give you a very extreme example. In really extreme examples, let's take severe alcoholic who is barely functioning, loses jobs, gets up, starts drinking in the morning, drinks more at lunch, is staggering by afternoon, sort of recovers barely, is barely getting through it. And then they have a partner, a spouse. [00:16:47.730] And the spouse bemoans this, like, oh, blah, blah. And everyone's like, oh, my God, it's so difficult. And they go to Alanon to work on the boundaries and to bemoan their fate with this person. And it's interesting how often in that codependent relationship, if the alcoholic actually does go and get clean or they're really struggling, they're trying to get clean and they're grouchy. They're just new in their sobriety. [00:17:18.550] Their biology is all off. Their brain no longer has this chemical that it's used to incorporating, and people are super grouchy and it looks really painful. Sometimes the spouse who doesn't drink will actually provide the alcoholic with the alcohol. They'll be like, look, I think you're doing this too fast. I'm helping you out. [00:17:42.820] Like, they say, you shouldn't do it, you should go cold turkey, but I'm going to let you drink a little bit. And they'll actually give their spouse, their alcoholic spouse alcohol, and they'll say they're doing it because they're really worried about them, whatever. But the truth is they thrive off of having an alcoholic as a spouse, and unconsciously they're going to sabotage the alcoholic's recovery. [00:18:12.190] This is deep, really obvious black and white codependency. Anyone who looks at that goes, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Like, you gave an alcoholic alcohol, but in their mind it makes sense. [00:18:29.330] They'll sell it in some way, or they'll be like, well, I was afraid that they were going to kill themselves or whatever. They'll sell it under legitimate, logical reasons that you find it difficult to argue with. But in the end, they thrive on having an alcoholic as a spouse. So that's an extreme level of codependency. The version I'm describing is just this emotional confusion. [00:18:56.890] Excuse me, pardon my voice. [00:19:00.990] An emotional version of this. Well, it's all emotional, right? But it doesn't have the extreme version of the behavioral manipulation of giving an alcoholic alcohol. Where partners only fight this way, every fight turns into this. Hey, what do you think we should have for dinner tonight? [00:19:23.970] I don't know. I'm not really sure. To tell you the truth, I'm not that hungry. Well, come on, you always say that, but then you blah, blah, blah. I'm irritated because my spouse is wishy washy and doesn't like to make decisions. [00:19:38.740] And then very quickly, something that could be addressed turns into like, oh, my God, you're always like, you. Literally. I swear to God, you've done this since childhood. I talked to your mom. She said, you're always like, you need to solve this problem. [00:19:53.090] Once again, my spouse is doing something that bothers me, that I have a right to address. It may even cross my boundaries, but suddenly I'm into character assassination. [00:20:06.370] Some couples do that on almost every fight, and sometimes they'll go into cycles where they're okay with little squabbles and then sometimes they'll go through a period of months where every single fight devolves into me, saying, I'm helping you by trying to manipulate you into fixing yourself so that you no longer irritate me. Okay, so this is the behavior. If you see this behavior, if you dip into it every once in a while here and there, and you're aware of it, and you come back and apologize, and you're like, hey, that was a little gross. Let's just negotiate the issue and be super careful. Great. [00:20:50.080] You're a healthy couple. You're in a healthy place. But if you regularly do this, it's going to end your relationship. It might not be tomorrow, it might not be next year, it might not be next decade. Children complicates things. [00:21:07.020] But again, when people feel really surprised, when once both kids or all three kids, or the one child leaves the home or whatever, where suddenly a couple is just out of there, they've been doing something toxic for years and they've just had it. And a lot of times people are like, oh, well, it was a sexless marriage. Well, you don't get into sexless marriages. Nine times out of ten, it's an emotional, psychological problem. It's a relational problem. [00:21:36.750] It isn't just that one person is like, well, I have no libido. Again, so often when people have no libido, it is because their spouse has manipulated or they're uncomfortable or there's so much resentment that their body is like, the hell with this. I don't feel like getting excited with this person. It feels vulnerable and gross. Like, I don't want to be in the super intimate activity of sexual. [00:22:01.760] And sex will become a little bit masturbatory. Like, I need it. I need it. And I'm having sex with someone because I'm getting a little bit desperate and I don't want to cheat. But on the down low, you kind of don't even like your spouse. [00:22:16.410] So what do we do about this? Number one, you have to own that. It's what you're doing. And here's the cheat code. The key. [00:22:31.330] You might be right. I've been married for 17 years. My wife knows me pretty well and knows what I grew up in and knows what my compulsive coping mechanisms are. And I know her very well. I'm a therapist, for Christ's sake. [00:22:46.890] I sit there and analyze people. My wife, my poor wife, right? I think about that stuff. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you're right. [00:22:56.640] It doesn't matter. It's a shitty thing to do to try to win an argument about some one-off thing that you disagree on by trying to convince the other person that they haven't addressed who they are and how they are and their unconscious behaviors. Even if you're right, it is so violating. It's like emotional molestation. It's gross. [00:23:29.650] It's not fair. Even if you're right, it's not fair. So the only way to back out of this is there are two things that need to be addressed. One, if your spouse does have a long standing, very habitual behavior or way of doing things or way of relating to things, that creates problems for you and crosses boundaries for you, you do need to address that. It is crucial that you stay out of their psychology and their emotions. [00:24:07.950] It's crucial. So many couples say things like, well, it's like when you get married, I want this person to be my best friend, and I want us to inspire one another and push one another. But a lot of times all that means is you have boundary issues and you want access to your spouse in a way that isn't healthy. I don't have time to get into what's healthy, support for your spouse, but I can tell you that most of the time, the person who can push you is not your spouse. There's too much intimacy, there's too much enmeshment, there are too many resentments, and you're both on the battlefield of life, and especially if you're raising kids or whatever, it's too messy. [00:24:55.860] It's too easy to try to manipulate and to be dishonest accidentally. [00:25:03.150] What I've seen, and I may have a biased, this might be biased because I'm a therapist, but what I've seen is mostly people don't do well with spouses pushing one another. It's the last person that people will listen to unless you've really worked on and really, really gotten good at talking to one another very neutrally and very respectfully. So back to the point. If you have a spouse who does have a long-standing behavior, if my wife will forgive me, she's of Latin origin. I don't know if that's why. [00:25:38.250] Whatever. But when it comes to time, I'm a total waspy anal compulsively on time, and my wife is almost compulsively not unless she really has to. She's very professional with her job, but in most other things, she just doesn't manage time the way I do. And so there's a thing right there's a thing there and it's a problem for me and it's not a problem for her. She doesn't mind. [00:26:03.900] She doesn't bother her that much mostly. And it's a problem for me if I'm going to negotiate that with her. I don't get to go, blah, blah. Your childhood was like this and you would be so much better. And I see how stressed you get because you don't know how to manage your time. [00:26:21.770] And if you would just listen, just gross. Nobody is going to stand still for that. You're basically leveraging your intimate knowledge of the other person's emotional and psychological content in order to manipulate them to get what you want when, clearly they don't care. Right? The only way to do that is to completely own what it is for you. [00:26:45.970] I'm waspy. I'm a little compulsive about being on time now that has some good outcomes. And also, if I'm stressing myself out or stressing my kids out, that's not good. The stress I'm putting on them is way more dangerous for them than being late. Right? [00:27:03.030] I need to own my BS, clean up my side of the street and say, I'm open to a conversation about where I might go sideways with this, but I do feel like I deserve some negotiation with you in figuring out how we can work with time. Where if it's going to make me late for work, that you really work with me to make sure that your long-standing habit doesn't start forcing me to change my long standing habit. Where we disagree, like the way we do this is fundamentally different. We shouldn't agree. We should not seek for one person to win. [00:27:47.480] Or even, let's just make sure both of us get our boundaries respected as much as possible. So if it's a long standing habit, maybe my wife might address with me my tendency for being overly direct. I'm a therapist and also it's the way I think. I just say emotional things that I see as true very directly. And I'm comfortable with people saying that to me, but a lot of people are not, right? [00:28:17.280] So that's a long-standing habit, right? When she addresses that with me, she would need to start with, hey, this is who I am and how I am and this is how I experience it. And I would like for us to really navigate how you do that and then maybe we navigate, okay, there are situations, you have a right to that, and we don't have a right to totally change me or impugn the way I do things. There is no right or wrong on most of these things. Right? [00:28:48.140] So that's for the long standing emotional or psychological habits. You have to stay within your experience of it. I experience it this way. This is who I am. I could see this being a problem for you, but I'm wondering if you can really help me. [00:29:03.650] And then you have to get really concrete. Okay? If I'm going to drop my daughter off and then go straight to work, or if I have something that your habit could make me late. You probably owe me some flexibility there. If we're just getting ready to go to the park on Sunday and I'm sitting there stressing you out because I just wanted to get out of the house and that's just the way I am, I think I probably owe you some flexibility as much as possible, trying to give the other person room to be who they are and operate how they are and not go, well, I'm right. [00:29:39.260] My way is more successful. None of us is more successful. None of us. The world is full of rape and starvation and war and blah. Like, oh, if we've solved some big existential problem, then those things are not here. [00:29:53.630] Then people are coming and worshiping at our feet and going, guru, please advise me. Well, you're not that person. I'm not that person. There may be some people who are that person, but that's not me. Right. [00:30:06.120] And that's not you in your relationship. So you don't get to go to the other person and be like, well, I've cooked the way everything works, and the world would be better if every. No, it wouldn't. No, because there's a bunch of other people just like you. And the world is not better. [00:30:21.110] It's just full of a bunch of people who are different. Okay, so let's come back to something more concrete where you definitely have to eliminate all that stuff. What if it is a concrete thing? Like, you drop your laundry on the floor, you must stay focused on the specific behavior and outcome. Now, introverts hate this because we're constantly turning inward and looking at long patterns, sometimes subtle patterns. [00:30:51.090] Everything's psychological, everything's emotional. But if you're in a relationship with an extrovert, they don't think that way. They're just like, well, what do you want? What are you asking me for? And introverts get pissed off because we're like, well, I want you to recognize that there's a habit and this is because of the way you think about, you can't do that with an extrovert. [00:31:09.230] Just tell them what you need. Right? And this is the cheat code anyway, whether you're an introvert or extrovert. So you come to that person, do not cross their psychological, emotional boundaries. Parents, this is super important for you with kids. [00:31:26.440] Parents just absolutely molest their kids emotionally, psychologically. I know how you think and blah, blah. And if you would, no, it's horrible. You want that person to grow up and be autonomous and independent. Give them the right to their internal world and internal experience. [00:31:42.940] If they trust you and they share it with you, that's beautiful. But if they don't, and you're going like, I know what you think, and you do the like, oh, man, it is the worst. It's the worst. That's a whole nother podcast episode. So with your spouse, you say, hey, I know there's no right and wrong. [00:32:05.110] I have my experience with this thing. I really struggle with you leaving your laundry on the floor, for example. I really liked how my wife navigated. I don't like things dirty, but I'm creative, cluttered. Like, I actually am more creative when stuff is cluttered. [00:32:24.830] And that really is not healthy for her. She feels anxious. It's harder for her to think and operate. And she just would tell me, I actually get depressed. There's a certain level. [00:32:39.300] Like, I just can't stand it. I really appreciate that and respect that. Right? She's just owning her experience of it. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with her. [00:32:45.900] She's owning her experience, making it subjective and saying, this is how I experience it. That's how you experience it. And I feel really willing to be like, yeah, let me change how I operate, unless it's really creating some toxicity for me. If she came to my job and said, you need to clean up your desk, I'd be like, get bent. Like, stay out of my business. [00:33:08.860] This is where I do what I do. But in our shared space, we need to navigate it, right? So you need to be really specific about the behavior. Do not cross the boundary into other people's psychology and emotional unless you have developed deep, deep trust. And they open it and they're like, yeah, I do struggle with that. [00:33:33.620] I do think something's going wrong going on. Like, I don't know, maybe I should talk to a therapist. Then I would encourage them and say, yeah, I've seen that pattern, but you'll sort it out. And also, I don't want to make it about you being emotional, having issues. I'll support you if you do that. [00:33:49.660] But could I just ask you to pick up your laundry at night, to just put it away? And would you feel okay if I reminded you, or does that irritate you? It just takes enormous ownership and humility to be married. It takes humility to be married. You must own that. [00:34:14.390] You chose to cohabitate with another human animal with entirely different paradigms, beliefs, behaviors, unconscious behaviors, and that 99% of this stuff, there's no right or wrong. Again, if there was a right or wrong and there was something that magically worked, the world wouldn't be a mess, right? If we're really so smart and insightful, why isn't my way of living and my way of doing things quickly propagating out to everyone else and solving starvation and solving energy problems and solving war? Like, stop? We're not solving the most fundamental, primal problems. [00:34:58.450] So let's not get it twisted and pretend that whether I pick my laundry up or I don't, or whether someone on Instagram posted that your people are more successful if they make their bed in the morning, great, maybe, whatever. [00:35:13.570] But we need the humility to just own the behavior and to say, this is what I'm asking for from you, because I experience it this way, and it's really hard for me. And then negotiate that. If you can do that, you can have a relationship for life if that's what you want. If you can do that, you can have a relationship for life if that's what you want. If you take conflicts, especially ones that are just about a concrete behavior, like where we like to eat, or you leave your laundry on the floor and you instantly turn it into, you're this kind of person. [00:35:52.320] Like, I know why you do this. And if you would listen to me, that is toxic, toxic, toxic, toxic. If you have those conversations, if you have those fights, I would be shocked that you don't leave those feeling unheard, feeling emotionally violated, having the same message come back to you and feeling like, I don't know how long I can do this. Like, this person just doesn't get me, you can solve this. You can solve it, but you have to recognize the other person's emotional, internal state and psychological state and understand it is not yours. [00:36:30.170] Whether you're right or wrong about their pattern, you must not cross that boundary. You will only get retaliation and resentment and anger, and they will not feel heard, and they will not feel seen and understood, and you will also not feel heard and seen and understood. And that is either short term or long term the death of a relationship. All right, so I made it through. I didn't stop. [00:36:57.300] It's pretty complex. If you guys have questions, I'm happy to speak further on it, but the cheat code is do not speak to other people's psychological or emotional internal state unless they really trust you and they've invited you. Never do it in fights with spouses. Stay focused concretely on this is my experience of it and this is why I'm asking you. Can you work with me on it? [00:37:21.370] Be very respectful. You must be very humble in long term relationships and own the fact that you as an individual have not solved the world's problems. And if you haven't, there isn't a real right or wrong in most of these cases. All right, you guys, thank you so much for listening to a complex one that went on for a minute. It is great to see everybody. [00:37:44.820] I hope you have a great day and I'll see you next time. Take care.

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Jon Sorensen

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